Tuesday, January 10, 2012

Education In India

Extracts from Various News Papers about the state of education in India. 

The Issues


Times of India December 6th 2011


UP minister for small-scale industries draws salary as principal, teacher
 LUCKNOW: Uttar Pradesh minister for small-scale industries Chandra Dev Ram Yadav, who is already under the Lokayukta's scanner for doubling up as a serving headmaster in his home town Azamgarh, holds a third lucrative charge. In a chance discovery on Thursday, Lokayukta Justice NK Mehrotra found that Yadav had been functioning as manager at Kashi Vidya Mandir, a primary school in Azamgarh's Hajipur.

While his contribution as manager to the school is still not clear, the assignment is making him richer by approximately 4,50,000 a month as salaries of all 17 teachers in the staff, was found to be credited to his account regularly. It was discovered that the list of teachers was fictitious.

Kashi Vidhya Mandir, is one of the 83 (highest number in UP and Uttarakhand) schools in Azamgarh that get a special monthly grant from the state social welfare department for having on their rolls an unusually high number of scheduled caste students.

Going by the testimony of the district welfare officer SN Dwivedi, it is the only school of the district where teachers salaries do not go to their respective bank accounts but credited to the bank manager's account.

The practice followed by the KVM is to send in a demand note every month with a signed paper to the bank manager certifying that the teacher mentioned by name, carried out his duty during the specified month.



 https://pritamkabe.wordpress.com/2011/10/17/basic-education-in-india-lack-of-teacher-accountability-not-technology-is-the-real-issue/
 Basic Education in India – Lack of Teacher Accountability, NOT Technology, is the Real Issue.
 Conclusion:
Lack of technology, or lack of funds, is NOT the real issue in the Indian education system. All the current educational programs in India are shying away and NOT addressing the root cause of the educational issues. At least from what i saw in India, the real issue in the public education system in India is the lack of accountability, in particular teacher accountability. And unless this issue is addressed, the quality of education in India will NOT improve. It is time we stop ignoring the customer (the parent/student) and start empowering them. The teacher accountability issue in India is a very complicated and difficult issue to deal with. Addressing it will require the will of the Indian government, and an improvement in the quality of demand – in the form of a cultural shift and support from the educated mass. And technology can play its part in creating a positive change ONLY if used the right way, by thinking in terms of the local context – by taking into consideration the social, cultural, and economic conditions.

Action taken by the state(s) 
  
Extract from Op-ed in the Indian Express on Oct 8th, 2011.


The failure of the Indian education system must count as the Indian government’s greatest failure. Over 90 percent of students drop out of school by the 12th grade and only six percent go on to tertiary education, to cite just one dismal statistic. We have to understand that the failure is primarily due to flawed policies that the government has consistently imposed on the education sector. Aakash, like its predecessor the “$10 laptop”, is just another distraction, but a very costly distraction.
It is costly in many ways. First, the government should not be subsidizing consumer electronics. Electronics is the most competitive industry in the world and extremely competent huge corporations are constantly innovating with the result that costs move downwards monotonically. Governments are incapable of choosing winners in technology, and the Indian government has demonstrated particular ineptitude in that regard.
Second, the lack of real commitment to fix primary education is especially hard on the poorest sections of the society. Promoting digital gizmos at immense public costs only widens the gap between the haves and the have nots. Something like half the 7th standard students cannot read, write or do simple arithmetic. Where a hundred million suffer illiteracy, attempting to promote digital literacy cannot but be a cynical exercise in self-promotion and aggrandizement.


A press conference saying that India has invested in providing blackboards and teachers in 100,000 schools that lack them would not be as headline grabbing as one which parades a me-too device hyped as an “iPad killer.” A policy of funding toilets in schools (needed to alleviate the suffering of girl children especially) does not have the sex appeal of a policy of handing out digital gizmos. But the production and distribution of hi-tech gadgets offer immense opportunities to profit for the producers and the government – never mind at what cost to the public.


Press releases that repeat the claim by the government that the Aakash tablet will be sold in tens of millions of units fail to do basic arithmetic. The subsidy costs could run into billions of dollars. Like so many other government schemes, the Aakash tablet, in the unlikely event that it is actually produced, will ultimately be funded by the poor through increased inflation. Unlike Mr Sibal, the poor suffer when the government runs the printing presses at the mint overtime.


http://www.livechennai.com/detailnews.asp?newsid=2883


Jayalalitha inaugurates Free Laptop - Cattle scheme 

 
Chief Minister J Jayalalithaa today  inaugurated the flagship schemes at a function here as part of the 103rd birth anniversary celebrations of dravidian leader C N Annadurai.

At an official function held at neighbouring Tiruvallur District, Jayalalithaa launched distribution of free fans, mixies and grinders to women folk, laptops to Plus one and two students in government and government-aided institutions, special incentives for Class X, 11 and 12 students, cross-bred jersey milch cows to rural poor and four goats/sheeps to the poorest of the poor at a total cost of Rs 2,353 crore this year.

The free schemes would cover 1.85 crore families who draw rice from the Public Distribution System and was aimed at bringing about inclusive growth and eradicate poverty and improve the standard of living of the people.

To monitor the distribution of Wet Grinders and Mixies for housewives, laptops for students of higher secondary classes and college, milch cows, goats and sheep for weaker sections in rural areas, a Special Programme Implementation Department was created by the Chief Minister.

In the first year of its implementation, the government would provide mixies-grinders-fans for house wives at a cost of Rs 1250 crores covering 25 lakh families.    

Under the Free laptop scheme, aimed at empowering, nurturing and enriching students, besides enhancing their skills by taking advantage of the IT revolution, 9.12 lakh laptop computers would be distributed at a cost of Rs 912 crores.





 





Thursday, January 5, 2012

Stuck In A Time Wrap

Over the week end we went to the Cottage Industries Emporium at Janpath after a long time. While Delhi continues to change with  malls and shopping centers sprouting in every neighborhood, The Cottage Industries Emporium remains  unchanged.It seems to be stuck in a time wrap.

We have been going to this cornucopia of  Indian delights since the sixties. It had a mix of of inexpensive and expensive handicrafts, sculptures, carvings, textiles,silver and brass gifts and furniture. Also thrown in was a mini boutique selling leather goods and a picture framing gallery . When I first left for the United States in the early seventies, I bought some gifts for my host family.   After getting married, we furnished part of our house in Singapore with Indian furniture.Every time we visited from Hong Kong or Singapore a stop at the Emporium was a must.

The idea of having all the handicraft at one place for the tourist was a excellent idea. In Hong Kong  when I arrived there in nineteen seventy five, there was China Products Emporium which was a broad based department store and you could buy anything from a sewing machine to household furniture to sweaters to fine carvings and porcelain, all at  very reasonable prices. The designs might not have been the most stylish, but were functional and  served the purpose. I have cashmere sweaters bought there from the eighties and still going strong. The objective of the store was to earn hard currency for China. There were four or five of them scattered over Hong Kong. In addition there were one or two China Arts and Crafts which sold  a smaller variety of products and as the name implied, concentrated on arts. However starting from the mid-nineties, as China started opening up, China Products gradually started shrinking and by the late nineties had pretty much disappeared. In the meantime China Arts and Crafts went up market and and brought in designers for their garments and started selling wood, stone carvings, porcelain and paintings by master craftsmen, all bearing certification of authenticity. Price range for some of the items could be in hundreds of  thousands of dollars It is still one of my favorite stops, even if I do not buy anything.

The Cottage Industries Emporium could  follow the example of China Arts and Crafts and concentrate on selecting  the best of the best,arts and crafts from each state. This is now easier to do since most states now have their own emporiums  as well and they can sell a mix of low end handicrafts.It  needs to upgrade the contents,design and visuals and truly make it a show case of the best of the best of what India has to offer.

 The payment system has not changed since it first opened. Although the various departments are scattered over a few floors, payment still  has to be made by queuing up at the ground floor at the few counters where there appears to be a competition among the cashiers as to who can win the prize for being the slowest. Once the payment is made, you then have to go to another counter to pick up the goods which might not have arrived. Finally before leaving, a guard at the exit has to punch your sales ticket which he does without bothering to check whether the goods match the sales ticket. I know we need to create employment, but this is taking it to an extreme. Perhaps the concern is that of shop lifting. Department stores all over the world sell hundreds of items scattered over several levels with more than one cashier at every level. Surely the Indians and the visiting tourist do not constitute  a larger number of kleptomaniacs.  Why not have a cashier at each level ? This would make it more efficient. 

Having said that, it is not all bad, the store does have a good mix of offerings such as textiles, fabrics, sculptures and  furnishing. The sales staff when ever they are not chatting among themselves are reasonably polite and they do know the provenance of the goods sold.

Get rid of some of the departments, concentrate on the arts, high end textiles and fabrics in a pleasant , welcome environment and  you will see turn over going up significantly. Open a food court with food from different states so that people can not just visually feast their eyes, but also enjoy the taste of Incredible India.  But then perhaps the objective here is not to make money......and who gives a damn ?







Wednesday, January 4, 2012

The Death Of Hope

The start of the year began with a lot of hope of brighter things to come. Now that 2011 has come to an end I would like to amend slightly the line of a popular song "What a difference a year makes". At the beginning of the year thing India was still shining, economic growth was being predicted at 9 percent , the stock market was doing well. The media was highlighting the Commonwealth Games corruption scandal. The social  activists using Anna Hazare as their mascot started raising their voice. Twelve months later, the picture looks rather gloomy. Economic growth is now being predicted at 7 percent  or below. While  a few people involved in some of the corruption scandals were jailed, some of them are out on bail. No one has been convicted. The activists got carried away with their own importance and seem to have underestimated the wily politicians.

The picture on the economic side is staring to cause concern. There is now talk about India going down Greece's path. While we enjoy the comfort of the over 300 billion  dollars in reserves it covers nine months of imports. In addition there is a substantial portion of the foreign currency borrowings coming due. Yes, obviously exports will partially offset the off flow, but take into account the outflow of FDI and overseas investments by Indian companies. In the meantime the credit markets are tightening up and the ability of Indian companies to roll over their foreign currency borrowings ( loans, bonds  and convertibles ) becomes more difficult.  If oil prices go up, the margin of safety becomes perilous. There is a reasonable chance that one or more Indian companies could possibly default or restructure their borrowers.

In the meantime with their eye on the forthcoming critical state elections in some states and longer term , the politicians are playing their usual games. They are trying to out do each other in terms of hand outs and creating obstacles to obstruct legislation which would encourage foreign investments or reduce corruption. As a result some of the states are running huge deficits. In some states to influence the farmer vote bank, the state governments have been providing free electricity as a result of which these state utilities are unable to pay the power generators. This in turn compounds the problems of the generators who bid aggressively for the privatized power  generation and are now being squeezed by non-payment of receivables on one hand, and  rising costs on the other. Also the non-availability of the feedstock. As the string unravels the banks who financed these power projects are now seeing the non-performing  loans continuing to mount. This is just one aspect of it. One could go on about education - subsidized lap tops and and tablets, food subsidy and so on, costing the tax payers billions of dollars. None of the governments targets for power,education, highways, have been met. The Center for Science and Environment, a 22-year-old New Delhi -based advocacy and research organization has in a recent report mentioned that "71 cities in India "....had devastated its surface water, it was depleting its ground water and it had no plan for managing its water or waste water" and its rivers have in effect become drains for the expanding cities.

Anna Hazare's team   had the wind behind the sails in the early stages, but his key lieutenants got a little carried away  and started dictating terms.It had to be the Anna way or the high way. In the meantime some of the skeletons in their own  cupboard started  emerging. Also instead of focusing on just  corruption  they started opining on other sensitive political matters.In the process they forgot that India is a democracy and  no matter how well meaning your intentions are, you cannot over rule the Constitution or the whole country falls apart.  In this, they underestimated their opponents, the crafty politicians, who managed to stall the passing of the anti-corruption bill , with all parties pointing fingers at each other.With its continued criticism of the Congress Party , the activists are increasingly being seen as fronts for the BJP. It might not be the case, but both parties have enough dirty linen. To spare one gives the impression that you are not neutral.  A lesson to be learnt is that you cannot topple the edifice built over decades with a few thousand people,  unless you resort to violence and that is not the Indian /Gandhian way. You have to chip away at it as Mahatama Gandhi did and get the support of the population and the media. You have to take and live the moral high ground and ultimately outfox the foxes as Gandhi did with the British. 

What has also been interesting is that finally the business leaders have started voicing their concerns over the state of affairs and that there is no captain steering the air-craft carrier. Yet in some of the scandals in the telecom,mining and other industries, it is some of these names which  are  household names or business icons  which have been dragged in the mud. Whether they are guilty or not remains to be seen. Also some of the larger groups are investing more overseas than in India.  Prime Minister Manmohan Singh recently chastised the business tycoons in his own gentle version of " Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". 

As we start the new year, it is becoming increasingly obvious that hard decisions have to be made, and all political parties have to set aside their personal agendas and  come through as they did in the early nineties to prevent another crisis.Otherwise we will be reverting back to the Hindu rate of growth. Without accelerated growth and its increasing youthful population, the politicians will be faced with the Indian basanti  revolution .


Thursday, December 29, 2011

The Coolies from India - Indian Indentured Labor - Follow On

In my blog of November 29th, The Coolies from India - Indian Indentured Labor I talked about the indentured labor from India.

By coincidence I came across this article  in a recent issue  in the online  Caravan Magazine


http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Story.aspx?StoryID=1058&Page=1

Some of you might find this article  interesting.







Monday, December 19, 2011

The Rumors About The Slow Decline Of The United States of America Are Highly Exaggerated


In my blog of  September 19th " Back To The Future",  I had mentioned that the United States would become less dependent on oil imports over a period of time. However, it appears to be happening much sooner than I had anticipated. There have  been some  news items which have surprised me . The Wall Street Journal recently  had  the following head lines  " U.S Nears Milestone: Net Fuel Exporter, " " Big Oil Heads Back Home ". This after a period of 62 years.It could be a aberration, but trend wise I do not think so.This was not the first article and there have been others which are similar in nature. In manufacturing also it appears that things are beginning to change. The Boston Consulting Group recently put out a report "Made in America Again "giving examples of the United States  regaining its edge in manufacturing. In my opinion, looking at the long term big picture over the next one or two decades , from a simple lay man's perspective and without doing a lot of academic research, there are signs that the twenty first century will not necessarily be the Asian century as is being predicted. Yes China and perhaps India will overtake Japan and Germany  in terms of the size of the economy, but  America will continue to be the eight hundred  pound gorilla.

Driven by the domestic production of both gas and oil over the next decade you will see the revival of the United States. By 2020 it is expected that almost one third of the domestic consumption is going to be from shale gas or shale oil.This has lead to the oil majors refocusing their investments to the United States. According to Exxon  by 2040  American crude  oil imports will solely be  from Canada.  Yes while you have to deal with the  environmentalists, it is better than dealing with with dictators and rulers who are into enriching themselves. No political risks to worry about. Besides no industry in the United States has a bigger lobby than the oil industry and who are normally supported by the Republicans.

At present  China is considered the workshop of the world, but according to the  Boston Consulting Group study and other anecdotal evidence which one reads from time to time, it is apparent that China is gradually loosing its  cost  advantage to countries such as Vietnam and Indonesia. After the war,  we saw  Japan playing a similar role that China has been doing over the last couple of decades, but by the late seventies and eighties Korea had replaced Japan. The ship building  industry is  a good example. In the sixties and even in the seventies, Japanese ship yards were the lowest costs producers out manufacturing the United States and Europe. Starting the eighties and into the nineties Korea overtook Japan. Presently China now appears to be overtaking Korea. However within a within a couple of decades China will start to face the same problem which Japan facing presently - the graying of the population. According to a study done by Prudential Foundation and the Center For Strategic & International Studies,  in 2004  ( "The Graying Of The Middle Kingdom" ) , it is expected that the number of senior citizens  ( over sixty years ) in China will overtake that of the United States by around 2030. However unlike Japan , China's citizens might not have accumulated the wealth to jump into the higher income category. However this could change if China changes its one child policy.

We all get mesmerized by China and  the outsourcing industry in India, but  what  we overlook is  that  a lot of the new technology which will impact world economies and their ability to dominate is still coming from America. This might be in the form of weaponry or computer chips or in medicine. The so called innovations from outside the United States  are  marginal at the best. In the areas of shale oil and gas which will play a major role in the  energy space, the United States is in the forefront of the of extraction technology. China and India will continue to play supporting roles.

In my opinion the reasons for this are two fold, the educational infrastructure and the immigration policy which the United States follows.

The excellent universities in  the United States are difficult to replicate.In almost all the countries in the world, the educational infrastructure is devised, built and subsidized by the governments and you cannot prevent the politicians and the bureaucrats interfering in the running of the institutions. In the United States while the  state does play a role in some institutions , the majority of the schools which are generally ranked among the top ten, are private institutions. The business model  is unlike any other in the world. Linked to this is the philanthropic nature of its citizens who happily give ( with a little help from the tax authorities) to their educational institutions. Surprisingly these institutions also receive contributions from overseas benefactors who instead of donating to the institutions in their own countries which need the funding much more, happily write a check for millions of dollars to the Ivy League or other  top universities, particularly if their children are studying there. In addition the institutions work closely with business to encourage practical research. This model is difficult to replicate within  a short period.

While we read about some of the draconian policies followed by  the states bordering Mexico and the complaint by e prominent business men such as Bill Gates, the United States immigration policies combined with its universities  has enabled the country to continue to retain its dominant role in the world economy. There continues to be a stronger push for the government to tweak its policies further to allow the best and the brightest of the world  who study in certain disciplines to stay on.If this goes through it will give it a further edge and America will be hard to beat.

Again taking a rather simplistic view of the world rather than on relying on complex computer models, if the dependencies on external oil and with some of the  manufacturing moving back , from a long term point of view you will see the resurgence of the American economy .The Asian giants will likely overtake the rest of the world, but America will continue to dominate for the foreseeable future.

With that you will see the overseas investors investing in American financial and physical assets.If I have to make a long term bet - ten years and beyond, I would bet on the United States and the  dollar.


Tuesday, November 29, 2011

The Coolies from India - Indian Indentured Labor


I recently read the Sea of Poppies by Amitav Ghosh.While the book is primarily about the little known  but extremely important role which India played during the Opium war between Britain and China, it is  the role which Britain played in dispersing the Indian diaspora thousand of miles from their home land which got my interest. Interestingly enough last week's Economist also  had a cover story of  the Diaspora which focuses primarily on the overseas Chinese and Indian  but viewed from an economic aspect

When slavery was abolished in 1833 ,  the British were faced with a dilemma as to how to staff their various plantations ,( whether these were sugarcane plantations in South East Asia or the  Caribbean or Mauritius or Fiji or in places such " British Guiana " in South America or work in tea and rubber plantation in Sri Lanka and Malaysia ) and various projects such are railroads across the world. By this time Britain had already colonized India.However they were not to first to start the process of indenture. That " honor" goes to the French who in 1830 took indentured laborers from Pondicherry and Karikal to the French Indian Ocean Island of Reunion.

 Theoretically the indenture was for a limited period after which they were supposed to be shipped back to India, but  in a lot of cases that never happened. They were given some small amounts to forfeit the passage back or in places such as Trinidad allocated land . By 1870 almost 1.2 million Indians were shipped abroad. Their transportation conditions were marginally better than the slaves, although  they were not shackled.

Where they appeared to have differed from the African slaves in the United States was that the Africans were from different regions and from different tribes. Once they reached their destinations they were dispersed and subsumed into and adopted a sub-culture of their own but which was aligned to the Christianity. There were of course areas such as Louisiana,Haiti, Brazil, where they retained some of their native culture particularly in terms of voodooism.

With regards to the  Indian indentured laborers or coolies as they were referred to,  it appeared that people were sent in batches from a particular province. These included a  provincial mix and hence retained their own caste, religion and culture. This again was intertwined with the cultures of the people they interacted with. However what was interesting that even after  many decades and in some cases generations later, their social norms , their language all seemed to be  in a time wrap. Their  home land India had changed and moved on, but their vision  and memories were that of what  their forefathers had left behind.

We are all familiar with  slavery and how the Africans  were shipped to the Americas and the Caribbean and the trials and tribulations they suffered.The discrimination which they have faced in the United States and which some of them feel they still face even though the President is black. There have been numerous books written, along with television shows and movies produced about the difficulties they had to go through.

On the other hand  there appears to be very little literature in the common domain about the discrimination suffered by the Indian indentured laborers.Apart from some academic papers and historical records in the Archives in India and perhaps the respective countries, there has been  very  little written about the suffering and discrimination these " coolies "  suffered The only thing I have read about the life styles of the descendants of  these people are the books written by V S Naipaul  such as A House for Mr. Biswas, The Mystic Masseur and so on and by his brother Shiva Naipaul. These were in a humorous tone rather than about the hardships suffered by their parents and grandparents.Yet they persevered and built a life for them selves and prospered in spite of being minorities and being treated as second class citizens.

It is interesting that the Indian academics and historians have not focused on this aspect of "Indian history" . I for one would be fascinated to read about the history of these migrants. Hopefully one of these days......



































Monday, November 21, 2011

New York - Random Observations

Recession - What  recession ?

Just came back from a two week trip to the United States. New York City is obviously not part of America. We keep reading about the recession and the unemployment but we did not see any sign of that in the Big Apple.

Everywhere we went there were crowds. The stores were all chock a block full with  people not just looking but buying. Restaurants were packed  with people waiting to get into the more trendy places. Retailers such as Uniqlo of Japan are opening up large flag ship stores. Madison Avenue is seeing a revival of trendy stores. The Apple Store near Central Park was packed and this was during a week day.

The streets crowds on Fifth Avenue reminded me of the sidewalks of Hong Kong during lunch hours. The museums  were full. Granted a large number appeared to be tourists - even though it was not the season.

I am told that the property prices did not go through a big correction during the financial crises. Some of the seedier parts of New York such as the Bowery are now going upmarket with some new apartments selling in the tens of millions. Based on my limited knowledge I had always viewed the Upper East or West Side as the place to stay and would have expected them to be the more expensive places, but for smaller places, prices appeared to be much higher in the areas between mid-town and downtown  as it is popular among the younger generation.

If this is New York during recession I wonder what it would be like during boom times ?

Just Like Us

This time when we reached JFK we saw a mad scramble for the immigration counters. The lines were huge . As is always the case we ended up in the slowest moving queue. It took us almost an hour to pass through the counter. This was something we are used to when we return to Delhi, but by contrast this time we sailed through the immigration in less than 10 minutes. What a change.

Of the taxis and limousines we took during our visit almost ninety five per cent of the drivers were from Punjabi's ( Indian or Pakistanis )  or from the sub-continent.  Much against my nature , I surprised my family by actually making an attempt to chat with a Punjabi driver  who has been there since the mid-eighties . He said his elder brother was a lawyer by training and a retired bureaucrat and had now migrated from India  to Canada. Upon being told that my daughter was a lawyer, he wanted some advice as to how his brother could come the New York and start a immigration practice.

The Americans like the Indians ( certainly the North Indians) love to eat and snack throughout the day. While in the past we had our traditional sweets and snacks, we now add  in  pizza's , burgers and and other eatables. Our  obesity levels will soon be matching those in the United States.

The aggressiveness of the New Yorker is well known.We have definitely overtaken them. When we have a traffic altercation it is not unusual for one of the parties to whip out a pistol, shoot the other party and flee the scene.

Just a week or so before our arrival in New York the East Coast of the United States had a unexpected snow storm. Some parts of New York  and adjoining states had black outs lasting over a week. Increasingly houses in the suburbs are now installing generators to avoid black outs which apparently are becoming common. Sounds familiar ? 

New York vs London

This is the first time I have spent this much time in New York. I have been to London more often  and always regarded is as my favorite city . In a lot of ways they are very similar. Both of them are their country's and global financial centers. Over the last century and a half  both the cities have benefited from  wealthy patrons who have donated to build up their cultural institutions particularly their art galleries, their museums, their cultural performance centers. Both of them offer a rich variety of global cultural events - art, plays, dance and music performances . They are both the favorite cities for the global rich, and aspiring young global professional whether they are  Indians, Chinese,  Russians,  Middle Eastern,  Africans or South Americans. London however  is more expensive than New York in every way.

In my personal opinion, where they differ is that in that in London the various ethnic communities appear to comfortable in their own skin  and retain their own national identity. Walking  down Oxford street you see Africans in their bright colorful national dresses, the Arabs in their robes, an occasional Sikh bhai ji  in his flowing beard and kurta pajama. They are all equally at home and no body gives them a second look . I did not see too much of that in New York. Here  everyone gets Americanized. They all want to appear to fit in, to wear the same stylish clothes and for those who have been there long enough adopt a veneer of New York aggressiveness in their mannerism.

If it was not for the long flight I could consider switching my loyalties to New York especially since my daughter is there.